Difference between revisions of "Talk:Poster"

Revision as of 11:28, 26 November 2017

Sun 26/11/17

A couple of resources for the hunt: a treasure map, and (to follow) a Messier compendium --James (talk) 11:28, 26 November 2017 (GMT)

Sat 25/11/17

Will edit main page to minimise suggestion that the 'floating' coim above the title is a galaxy, but will leave in a suggestion of it (in case it's right!) Thanks, Oscar, for pointing out it's probably a coin!! The Musée de Cluny had a stained glass exhibition from which there are over 50,000 images posted on TripAdvisor. Anyone fancy taking a look?! Otherwise, we ought I think to focus on Messier's life, e.g. he was Astronomer to the Navy... maybe the stained glass with the two portraits commemorates someone from the French Navy? I checked out the churches in the village where he was born - no joy. --JoC (talk) 08:22, 25 November 2017 (GMT)

Awesome on Hotel de Cluny!! Just spotted a couple more stars behind the comet trail to the left of Messier [James|HowDoYouGetAllThatCoolStuffInYourSignature?]

In the row of buttons above the edit window there's a "signature" button (second from right). It inserts the characters --~~~~, which get substituted for your name and timestamp when you press "Save page". --Oscar Cunningham (talk) 10:00, 25 November 2017 (GMT)

James, well spotted! Do you think those hidden stars are comet ones (with trails)... I have no idea if the stars are significant as stars (or as comets?!), as opposed to just pointing at astronomy generally! i.e. should we be thinking 'Well, there's 1 huge comet, 11 stars/comets with trails, 2 hidden in the comet tail' or is that not really useful?! PS Messier married in 1770; his wife and newborn son died in 1772 - this site suggests the son had been baptised at St. Etienne du Mont church in Paris. I'm checking out its stained glass, but nothing so far. I can't find where the wife and son were buried... --JoC (talk) 11:44, 25 November 2017 (GMT)

James - I'm adding 11+2 and will note on the main page that the 13 bright stars maybe represent the 13 comets which Messier is known to have discovered! May well be a thing worth a point :-) --JoC (talk) 11:49, 25 November 2017 (GMT)

Don't know about stars vs comets, you are both ahead of me here! Just to note also that comets often apparently have two tails forking off - a gas/ion one, cf. the rainbow one, and a dust tail, cf the one in which we find the mystery object above the title (could it also be a planet with a ring?). Also to note the presence of a circular blob of dust just below the title banner on the right hand side. --James (talk) 14:21, 25 November 2017 (GMT)

I didn't mention no. of tails because the way it's drawn - blending into the rainbow - made me think it was intended to show seven tails?! Messier was inspired by a 'Great Comet', with six tails - one short :-) If there are two, the 'dust tail' is not very distinct... and I don't know what that blob is under the title! A nebula, maybe?! Worth a mention on the page! --JoC (talk) 17:27, 25 November 2017 (GMT) ETA - James, you're quite right, there are two distinct tails - I hadn't been observant enough! Will try to add something.

This looks similar to our domed ceiling/windows, but I can't find a connection between Messier and Sainte-Chapelle. --JoC (talk) 18:17, 25 November 2017 (GMT)

I don't think this is it. The arrangement of the windows isn't exactly the same, and the ceiling has fleurs-de-lis rather than stars.

Fri 24/11/17

I'll add Oscar's comment about the stars with trails indicating comets to the main page - I think it's right! Also thought 'Eton mess' might be another mess, but have looked at stained glass at Eton College and not found a match :-) --JoC (talk) 05:07, 24 November 2017 (MST)

Thanks! Good idea on Eton Mess, I'm sure that will show up somewhere. Also very good work on the font. I changed the timezone settings so timestamps should now be correct for the UK. (Test: 1636?) --Oscar Cunningham (talk) 16:36, 24 November 2017 (GMT)

Good tip - time settings seem individual so I just changed mine, too. Also I just looked at your image of the long stained glass panel and realised there are four faces in it, not two, so will take another look!! --JoC (talk) 17:49, 24 November 2017 (GMT) - update: no, there are only two! TS/face/TS/face/TS.

Need opinions! Messier used Hôtel de Cluny (see Wikipedia's Messier page - 'Messier did his observing with a 100 mm (four inch) refracting telescope from Hôtel de Cluny (now the Musée national du Moyen Âge)'); its courtyard holds a hexagonal tower, and the top part of the tower (and surrounding balconies/railings) look like they have the same 8-leaf-on-stalk pattern as the poster! Coincidence? I haven't found that pattern reproduced *anywhere*. See [1]; I'm trying to find better views...

Have updated the main page, and decided that tower is octagonal, not hexagonal :-) (yes??!) --JoC (talk) 19:32, 24 November 2017 (GMT)

Have added a bit about an odd depiction of something above the title... let me know what you think it is (if anything?!) --JoC (talk) 20:20, 24 November 2017 (GMT)

Amazing work on finding the Hôtel de Cluny. It's definitely the source of the two towers on the poster (and the 8-leaf pattern) but not (as far as I can tell) the outer walls and roof. This is what the tower looks like from above (right of image). The tower's front edges are octagonal (i.e. their angles would form an octagon) but its back corners are square. I'm pretty sure that object above the title is just a coin from the treasure pot. Compare it to the other coins below. Also, the fact that the towers are from a real building definitely increases the chance that the rest of the architecture on the poster is also from real buildings.--Oscar Cunningham (talk) 22:12, 24 November 2017 (GMT)

Thurs 23/11/17

Sorry, I should have put these suggestions here and not on the Main Page. What do you think of the suggestions, anyway? And by the way, the visitors with IP addresses as IDs from before the page became password-protected were also me, logging in using train wifi! [James:Talk]

On the angels:

It looks very much like a portative organ/organetto, see [2] or [3]. There is an image of an angel with a portative organ, painted by Hans Memling (also spelled Memlinc; c.1430 – 11 August 1494), on the St Ursula reliquary (http://faculty.bsc.edu/jhcook/orghist/history/hist002.htm). [James:Talk]

I agree about the portative organ; Wikipedia says they were popular between 12th-16th c. and there are black lines on that image that suggest stained glass (but I wouldn't rule out illustrated manuscripts or wall paintings, either). It may only be there to give 'messenger' for angel but I would love to get its provenance! I have now looked at literally thousands of angel images :-( --JoC (talk) 03:23, 23 November 2017 (MST)

Saint Cecilia (patroness of musicians) is also often portrayed with a portative organ, but if flanked by other angels, they are usually playing instruments too, e.g. [4]. There are by the way some musical Masses ('Messe' in French, da-daah!) for St Cecilia, e.g. by Haydn, by Scarlatti, and by Gounod. [James:Talk]

The angels image, tweaked Media:angels.gif [James:Talk]

On the stars:

Note also that Messier Object M109 can be found in the constellation Ursa Major. The name Ursula means "little [she-]bear", cf. Ursa Minor. Possible ursine theme? [James:Talk]

Ursa Major - I'm not sure; I count 11 white stars with trails on the poster. I tried finding things with that many; none matched pattern-wise but that may not be important! --JoC (talk) 03:23, 23 November 2017 (MST)

I thought that the "moving" stars with trails and the "fixed" stars on the ceiling could be a reference to the purpose of Messier's catalogue: to distinguish the moving comets from the fixed background objects. --Oscar Cunningham (talk) 04:53, 23 November 2017 (MST)

Weds 22/11/17

Not sure if this is relevant, but the Old Testament messianic traditions refer to two Messiahs - Messiah Ben David (son of David) and Messiah Ben Yosef (son of Joseph). I think there may be synagogues named after each of these. And PS Charles Messier's father was a Nicolas :-( [James:Talk]

PS nice work on the carol, Oscar! [James:Talk]

Also "Moses" begins mess- because Hebrew doesn't have any vowels! Though perhaps we should wait till the ATH actually comes out before we go too far down the Kabbalah rabbit-hole. It might be worth finding some mess- words to keep an eye out for. I had a quick flick though the dictionary and noticed the mineral messelite (Ca₂(Fe²⁺,Mn²⁺)(PO₄)₂·2H₂O), the Messel pit (site of fossils), and Messidor (month of the French Republican Calendar). --Oscar Cunningham (talk) 05:40, 22 November 2017 (MST)

All good thoughts! Who posted about the Messiahs? I'll start using the sig/timestamp button on my musings. And Oscar, is this wiki public because I can edit even if I'm not logged in... can we make it closed, please, so no-one can spy? (Yes I'm paranoid!) --JoC (talk) 06:22, 22 November 2017 (MST)

I thought it was you! I've made it private now, so people will have to be logged in to view and edit. It hadn't occured to me that other people could spy! Also I think it's best to lay out conversations like these by putting your comment under the one before and using ":" for indents like I've done here. --Oscar Cunningham (talk) 06:53, 22 November 2017 (MST)

It was me! [User talk:James]

Ahah! To add to Mess... words, I've looked for English place names, only found Messing and Messingham; have looked for images of the stained glass in their churches (no green winged angels that I can see). Both are East Anglia (Norfolk?) and the Facebook ATH photo of them posting a poster was in a street in Cambridge. So I've also tried looking at stained glass from Ely cathedral; no joy. But I may have missed something! --JoC (talk) 13:42, 22 November 2017 (MST)

They just said on the Facebook group "There is no secret hidden in these pictures; they are just here to inspire you to go and put up posters. So off you go!" --Oscar Cunningham (talk) 00:32, 23 November 2017 (MST)

Ah, okay :-) But if one of the setters is in Cambs and they wanted to use an obscure church image like the angels... it was worth a shot! --JoC (talk) 03:25, 23 November 2017 (MST)

The building and stained glass are driving me nuts. He looks to be both outside and inside the building - I think *inside*. Google 'spanish synagogue' or 'synagogue interior' (I think you were right about synagogue, Oscar) and the interiors do have grand tower-like structures inside, and domey/gold pot type things... I tried Messina, don't think that's it. Something makes me think of Spain - maybe the guy's hat in the stained glass portrait? - and the architecture is a bit Moorish/Islamic? I can't identify the leaf/flower pattern shown on the masonry - any ideas? Is it a known Islamic pattern?

Tues 21/11/17

If you Google messianic architecture you get some similar styles of building... but none look quite the thing. Maybe all places of worship have towers/domey bits.

Mon 20/11/17

Could we be in the Rykestrasse Synagogue? --Oscar Cunningham (talk) 05:40, 22 November 2017 (MST)

- It does look like it, but no hexagonny bit... not sure :-)
- And VERY well done, Oscar, on solving the 'Decks the Halls' mystery!!!  Yay!
  Messy pleasure - much better than Messy Christplas :-)

Facebook chat between Jo and James, transcribed

Weds 15/11/17

Jo: I can't find any embedded links in the poster. All I can see is some 18th c. astronomer, maybe Halley, in rainbow football boots, riding a flying car. There's some potentially interesting stained glass imagery - angels holding something... and of course the coloured strips with letters etc. that have no meaning for me.

James: Do you think the writing on the left is referring to Verse 2 Lines 3-4 of something? The car looks like a specific Messerschmitt bubble car, i.e. this one: [5]

Also the medal the guy is wearing looks very like a French Légion d'honneur medal, although it's not a perfect match: [6]

Well I'm certain about the car, so that identifies one element, but no clue as yet about the code of the colour bands - hex codes? RGB values? and the guy - is it Halley? looks a bit like Anders Celsius maybe??

Jo: Ooooh, excellent sleuthing - smart find on the car!!! And yes, v2, lines 3-4 of something... I don't know what. And then presumably the crossed out letters indicate 'remove RR, replace with SS' or something? I also thought images of Celsius looked about right (better than Halley or Flamsteed) - I googled 18th c astronomers, tried to find some with medals etc. Could be Leg. de H. but not sure, as you say - not a perfect match! Oscar said he'll set up a wiki so when he's done that we can brainstorm on there. The rainbow football boots are amusing me but god knows what it means!!

James: Apparently also the bubble car came in a version with 'comet tail' trim, and there was a Messerschmitt ME163 'Komet' rocket-powered airplane in WW2...

Hervé Faye studied comets and got the Legion d'Honneur - [7]

But maybe more likely is Charles Messier [8]

The car was modified to reference the Me-109 airplane, and the list of Messier Objects includes the M109 [9]

Something to try playing (from the windows in the image) on your new piano? [10]

What do the colours mean in Google Image Search results? [11]

Also there is a range of Messi football boots, after the famous footballer.

Jo: Have been scouring the online bibles for v2 ll3-4 with 'merr' in them... to get 'mess'?!) Messier is definitely the dude - really looks like the image you linked to!

James: Hmm good idea - or a christmas carol? Lots of 'merry's...

Thurs 16/11/17

Jo: Quick thought about that music colour scale - there's a purple and then there's a pale lilac, what note would be the lilac?! If I can transcribe it I'll try to play it!

James: This is probably a better music/colour scale (and it is Newton's, which seems more in keeping...) Just not sure yet how to convert the colours/string lengths into piano notes. [12] Sorry meant to say, see Figure 2 on that page.

James: OK I think this is the conversion (top line), with each of the seven colours representing an interval in an octave.

Jo: Thank you! I tried out the simplest interpretation, it didn't remind me of anything! Shall play around with it tomorrow... Anyway, those colours look more like the poster, so thank you!

James: Exciting! Might be worth trying reversing the scale (bottom row of the figure) if the first ordering doesn't make sense. Do you think the heights of the coloured sections of the windows represent the duration of each note? Measuring them and getting the size ratios might enable translation into minims, crotchets, quavers, breves, etc. [13]

Fri 17/11/17

Jo: I did interpret the band widths as note lengths; will try the second scale later! PS - this guy's a Mess... composer, thought I'd approach the problem from the other direction! [14] Noted for Christmassy tunes, too 🙂

James: Good idea - there's also Olivier Messiaen and Handel's Messiah. Tempting to think of a play on words messier comet - messiah cometh...??

Jo: Ooh, I like that!