Chat

Sun 17/12/17

Have you seen this site, Jo? Armorial shields of towns and villages of France, organized by Departement: http://armorialdefrance.fr/recherche_par_departement.php - there's also an alphabetical list http://armorialdefrance.fr/demande_alpha.php James (talk) 22:26, 17 December 2017 (GMT)

Yes, it's been my main source :-) Time-consuming going through though! --JoC (talk) 23:34, 17 December 2017 (GMT)

Do you think that if the blue squares are Mess- names, the ovals might be Messiaen associations? Nantes, for example, hosts the Olivier Messiaen Music School http://www.emom.fr/

Good thinking James! Also, I found the other two Mess- towns, adding them now.--Oscar Cunningham (talk) 23:29, 17 December 2017 (GMT)

Great idea, James! Love the updates (though think Nantes is wrong because it doesn't have any symbols from the P5 ring?!) This has been driving me nuts :-) --JoC (talk) 23:33, 17 December 2017 (GMT)

The Nantes shield has the green sea, the ship, and the red shield with the ermine top, those are all on the ring, I think? --Oscar Cunningham (talk) 23:37, 17 December 2017 (GMT)

I;m not convinced by Montbrison though, James, especially since the three fleurs-de-lis are already accounted for by Laon. --Oscar Cunningham (talk) 23:42, 17 December 2017 (GMT)

So sorry - I didn't see the ship or the ermine over the red blason! Nantes is good :-) Well done James, and Oscar for the other Mess places! --JoC (talk) 23:48, 17 December 2017 (GMT)

Agreed re. Montbrison, Oscar. Think I'm running out of steam though. Incidentally do you think there might be any left-over motifs that could point us to the location of the treasure in Englad? --James

That would be nice! Am going to swap the Avignon image for one that has the same key shape they used (hope that's okay!) And I'll take out the town twins - I thought it might be a thing but now, not. --JoC (talk) 23:59, 17 December 2017 (GMT)

Good thinking! In fact I think you're right because there are 13 shields around the image and only 12 points on the map! Also, when I found the wikipedia page for Messei it's coat of arms was a "yet to be drawn" placeholder. But when I searched for the coat of arms on the rest of the web, I found that there was already a Wikimedia image - it just hadn't been linked to. So I edited the Messei Wikipedia page to show it properly. The fact that no one had already done this suggests that there aren't too many ATHers in front of us! --Oscar Cunningham (talk) 00:04, 18 December 2017 (GMT)

I tried superimposing the hexagonal grid upside down over the south of England, but it turned out to be quite a bad fit. :-( --Oscar Cunningham (talk) 17:49, 17 December 2017 (GMT)

It was a good fit when Ollie did it on his phone :-) Will take a look, and then do the heraldry/coat of arms on P5. PS, I noticed on the train that one of the postcards (of the sand/desert) had writing on it - Hello God? - not sure if the others do. Can one of you take a look and add a note to the Postcards page?! --JoC (talk) 18:09, 17 December 2017 (GMT)

Thanks, I couldn't make them line up but maybe I was looking at it wrong. I'd noticed the "Hello God", but I hadn't checked the other cards. Turns out they're all blank except for the Roman legionary which also has "Hello God" written on it. Also the formatting is quite particular. In both cases it's not "Hello God" but "(Hello, God)". --Oscar Cunningham (talk) 18:30, 17 December 2017 (GMT)

No idea what that means! But great to have noted it. I've updated the Hexagon Grid page with my musings on the shape of England :-) Not really sure about it. --JoC (talk) 19:21, 17 December 2017 (GMT)

Thanks to James for finding the Catalogue d'oiseaux! It solves all our bird problems. By the way can anyone make sense of the message I got from the letters around the mpa of France? "HERALDRY OF GAUL BEGOT TOO FROM ARMORIAL FRAGMENTS ROUND PERIMETER" sort of makes sense apart from "BEGOT TOO". Am I dividing up the words wrong or starting in the wrong place around the circle?--Oscar Cunningham (talk) 16:13, 17 December 2017 (GMT)

I noticed that the initials to the answers of the hexes spell a message when read following Mr Messy's Trail. So I'm going to make a new page with a table of them in this order. --Oscar

Okay, I did that and also moved a few birds from the Images page to Page 10. This meant I could delete the Images page. --Oscar Cunningham (talk) 11:15, 17 December 2017 (GMT)

Well done - I knew the initials spelt something but not the order :-) Have overslept chronically today! Will take another look later, but great work! --JoC (talk) 11:44, 17 December 2017 (GMT)

A massive thanks to all today (yesterday!) for being so amazing. James - I just looked through all the incredible links to relevant facts you've been making on the Images page - wow. But I'm off to bed! Hope you get some sleep :-) --JoC (talk) 00:25, 17 December 2017 (GMT)

It's been fun, hasn't it? Thanks so much for inviting me to join the team! There is a book on Messiaen's birdsong references - possiby overkill, but whatever... which I can email round if required (can't upload it as not an allowable file format - .djvu)--James (talk) 01:04, 17 December 2017 (GMT)

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Sat 16/12/17

Rachel solved the timeline! --Oscar Cunningham (talk) 22:27, 16 December 2017 (GMT)

Go Rachel! --JoC (talk) 22:30, 16 December 2017 (GMT)

Think this might help us nail the birds! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalogue_d%27oiseaux. I'm too tired to go through it tonight myself! --James (talk) 22:17, 16 December 2017 (GMT)

Oh my god - that's an amazing find! I'll try to at least put a pic of them on that page where most of them are. --JoC (talk) 22:19, 16 December 2017 (GMT)

PS - is it okay if I remove the 'Unique' images off the Images page onto their number pages. Then we just have the hex images left on 'Images' and I'll rename it!

Yes sure, it's a pain to have to update text in two places!

We can probably use this to make sense of the music! --Oscar Cunningham (talk) 19:23, 16 December 2017 (GMT)

Oh wow!!! And angels, too!!! :-) --JoC (talk) 19:35, 16 December 2017 (GMT)

P1 music spells arcsenciel - rainbows in French! Woo! Great find! --JoC (talk) 19:42, 16 December 2017 (GMT)

Oscar - do you want to translate them or shall I carry on? --JoC (talk) 19:43, 16 December 2017 (GMT)

Sorry we already did them! They're from a Messiaen quote! --Oscar Cunningham (talk) 20:12, 16 December 2017 (GMT)

That's fab - well done, and no worries (I'm really tired so I'm just fiddling about with housekeeping/tables etc.!) --JoC (talk) 20:20, 16 December 2017 (GMT)

I'm going to move the music stuff out of P1 and put it in the music page :-) --JoC (talk) 20:24, 16 December 2017 (GMT)

Rachel spotted the postmarks divide the postcards into three sets of four! --Oscar Cunningham (talk) 20:42, 16 December 2017 (GMT)

Ooooh - that's fab! You guys are doing all the work :-) I just stopped for some food! --JoC (talk) 21:01, 16 December 2017 (GMT)

Has anyone noticed what the grey dashed lines join (not the pink lines)? I can list them out. Seems to me there is a definite distinction between items with shadows and those without (i.e. I think in the Mr Messy Trail, the pink lines really only connect the things embedded in the pages, not those 'floating' above). Thoughts? --JoC (talk) 18:04, 16 December 2017 (GMT)

Sort of random but according to wikipedia Olivier Messiaen was an ornithologist... may be useful later --Rachel (talk) 15:20, 16 December 2017 (GMT)

I think that's definitely relevant! We have a lot of birds... I think James noted that Messiaen incorporated bird-like notes into his music, and from the poster we know that mapping music to colours can be useful (the whole colour/music/numbers thing). It may be relevant for e.g. that the 'dream cloud' coming from the Messi hex (1b) has hearts of some of the same shades as edge the hexagons... dunno! *Amazed* you guys solved the hexagon grid SO fast, well done! --JoC (talk) 16:36, 16 December 2017 (GMT)

Amazing work on the hexagonal grid, Oscar!!! I'm about to make a layer with all the brown splodges, as they are laid out in the thumbnail map - my guess is that they may map onto the Messier Object chart in some way...--James (talk) 14:24, 16 December 2017 (GMT)

Thanks! Another thing I noticed is that the pdf has a title: "(7, 4, 4)". What could that mean?--Oscar Cunningham (talk) 14:37, 16 December 2017 (GMT)

Good thinking, James! Yes! (Hope so!) And well spotted Oscar - no idea either :-) Shall I start a 'to do' page so we can note ideas more succinctly? --JoC (talk) 16:38, 16 December 2017 (GMT)

I might have found a connection between (7, 4, 4) and the Blue Edge Card with code on it. --Oscar Cunningham (talk) 17:03, 16 December 2017 (GMT)

Holy cow, Oscar - that's genius! Well spotted. Any ideas what we do with it?! I had a quick tally of dominoes on the train so have added that to P4. James - I love the splodges! --JoC (talk) 17:11, 16 December 2017 (GMT)

We worked it out! It's the code described here http://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1086/121088/pdf (Which Pubs APS VIII 109 is a reference to) --Oscar Cunningham (talk) 17:13, 16 December 2017 (GMT)

That's brilliant! I was just about to copy what you said on P3 to the blue-edged cards page, but maybe we leave the info there and do the code stuff on P3??! Only thing niggling me on the blue-edged cards is if the pictures on them have meaning? E.g. pond, snow, bird, etc. (lots of 4-lettered words, actually, I think).

Just got to the 1896 paper, but I see you were there first!! What a team!!

You're all geniuses :-) --JoC (talk) 17:26, 16 December 2017 (GMT)

We managed to convert it into a list of Messier Objects! --Rachel (talk) 17:50, 16 December 2017 (GMT)

Awesome! --JoC (talk) 17:56, 16 December 2017 (GMT) - ETA, you may as well continue to put the info up on the blue-edged cards page. Makes sense. I guess we'll use the pages for things which aren't in bigger groups. I'm adding some ad hoc images now to page-pages :-)

I have to go out into the wilds of Winchester now :-( I've tidied the Images page but think we should limit it to include only postcards, stamps, hexagons and any unique images which DON'T have shadows. There seems to be a difference between those images with shadows (like they are lying over the page) and those without (which look printed on the page). I think the rivers image, which has a blue edge like the other 'blue-edged cards', is part of that series along with the code/extra card on the same page (P3). That makes eight blue-edged/word pair cards, and eight red spots along the river... I guess each card is a real place to find! Will carry on later :-) Good work on the Mr Messy Trail!! --JoC (talk) 13:06, 16 December 2017 (GMT)

Yes! There is a River Mess!!! In Luxembourg - and Bergem is a place along it (BE GERM). Have moved the river image to the blue-edge cards page; would love to carry on with that one later! --JoC (talk) 13:19, 16 December 2017 (GMT)

Nice work! You can zoom in and follow the course of the Mess here, northward from its junction with the Alzette http://latitude.to/articles-by-country/lu/luxembourg/297350/mess-river - its course corresponds to that in ATH image, which would then put Bergem as the first dot (nearest the compass rose). Back over to you!

Thanks :-) I located the places, will look at the code later - really have to get going, argh! :-) --JoC (talk) 13:39, 16 December 2017 (GMT)

Messiaen: I've added some stuff on the Poster page, but it may need to be moved/reorganized later --James (talk) 11:29, 16 December 2017 (GMT)

I think that is fantastic - you've found loads of connections there! --JoC (talk) 12:27, 16 December 2017 (GMT)

Stayed up far too late, but made a map (resisted following Mr Messy's trail, though) :-) Happy puzzling tomorrow (today!) --JoC (talk) 06:19, 16 December 2017 (GMT)

I slept, yay. Thought I'd cut out the hexagons and do a puzzle - can we post what we want to work on so that two people aren't duplicating effort?! x --JoC (talk) 08:31, 16 December 2017 (GMT)

I'm numbering the hexagons first, so I don't lose track, and need to follow the pink thread, too - because I think it will help assist working out the order they're placed in the grey-bordered map (which I think may be a county outline but can't work out which one!) Will add the hexagon nos. to the Images page. --JoC (talk) 09:18, 16 December 2017 (GMT)

Whoever can edit down pdf files - please can we have a postcard image added to the P3 Images table?! I've put in the description (it's a plain postcard - not sure if the musical note is on the image or not?) Jo

Plus three images are missing from P4 :-) Have put descriptions as placeholders. And the postcard birth chart image is needed from P8.

On P9 an image has sneaked in from one of the blue-edge cards (with capitalised words on them); probably worth moving to a new page just for those? On P10, there are some misc. bird images because that's the page with the bird code/puzzle, which uses birds from the stamps (and maybe also some new ones!) Can leave for now and tidy later; just noting to remind myself!

Wow! Good work. Rachel and I just followed Mr Messy's trail and we found that it went through every hex exactly once and ended at the hex with the image of a treasure chest! The order is probably important, but I don't see how we would use it yet. Rachel is going to write down that order. I was going to write a computer program to put the hexes into the grid, but I can hold off on that if you want to do it yourself. I think it will be really hard though. --Oscar Cunningham (talk) 10:24, 16 December 2017 (GMT)

Ooh, if you can write a program for it that would be awesome! I've given each hex a unique no. so would be grateful if we can keep those. I'm going to edit the Images table now to put things in the same order, left to right. So do please carry on with the hexes!! I have to go Xmas shopping in a bit :-) x --JoC (talk) 10:59, 16 December 2017 (GMT) - PS, I had a thought about the order. If the grey-edged container represents a county (for instance), then travelling through the Mr Messy hex route would lead to ending at the location marked by the treasure chest... maybe a bit simplistic though?

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Fri 15/12/17

You've all done amazing things and I have a lot to catch up on :-) My first thought is all the pages fit together, following the red lines, so I'm laying them out. Does anyone know how to make thumbnail size pages?! --JoC (talk) 23:37, 15 December 2017 (GMT)

Good plan! I think the zig-zag lines will make a diamond into which we have to place the hexagons with the coloured edges matching where the pieces touch. You could cut out the thumbnails from the image on the ATH site https://pablosath.com/archive/2017/images/ath2017-montage.jpg. Also I think we should move the images to a new "Images" page, but I'll let James to that so that I don't mess up his flow.

Done! What fun! Going to bed now. James